I think the issue is certainly one of definitions. As a philosophy student I thought about this specific issue quite a lot, and got to a stage where I think I have the answer. The definition of 'genuine' nothing is really just that - absolute nothing. It does not contain the possibility of 'something'. If it did, it would not strictly speaking be 'nothing'.
Point one. Point two then acknowledges that there is clearly something (it doesn't matter what the something is, but there is something) - even if it's only me, that's still something. The fact that I am typing this is 'something'. That's self-evident.
Point three is acknowledging that 'something' cannot come from 'nothing' (which is the definition issue).
Point four then suggests that, therefore 'there must always have been something' - from a certain point of view the default state should be nothing, but it isn't. Logically, then, there can't possibly be a 'beginning' - because there can't one moment be 'nothing' and then the next moment 'something' - 'something' must have always existed. Thus, whatever it is that the something originated from is not nothing, but is itself something, with the power of creation - so the something is self-generative.
My final point five was a bit weird, and I suggested that the only thing 'relative to the nothing' which can exist is 'possibility' - meaning all of this 'something' is actually not a 'real thing' itself, but a 'possibility'. Meaning possibility is the only thing that can exist.
Nowadays I'm not too sure about point five. I think if something exists then everything exists, just not necessarily at the same time or in the same place, since that would create incompatibilities. To resolve that issue of infinity, the different possibilities for the arrangements/configurations of 'the something' must be separated - thus we get stuff like parallel worlds.
A deeper additional thought to all this is the action of 'time' on the something. I've come to think of time as the fundamental force - without some generative principle there wouldn't be any something. Time, then, is this generative principle - although it's probably not 'time' as most people understand it.
Anyway - there's my philosophical two pence there. This idea of nothing vs. something is one of my favourite philosophical questions - I'm glad I'm not the only one!
You leave some on the best comment here Evelyn. Excellent explanation, I've always loved the format of derivatives that philosophy uses, and can't understand why it isn't utilized universally. I think philosophy should be a class taught in elementary grade school. I've made the same deductions. I think that perhaps "nothing" might be able to exist, whatever that is, but if so, only momentarily. The "moment" being the time force that you've explained. I think that getting to the root of this lies in defining what nothing is, hence this post. Thank you for this.
I am absolutely with you on teaching philosophy in schools - also psychology. Of course, if the people in power allowed that they wouldn't be able to fool people anymore!
Yes, I think there can be pockets of nothingness, and temporary. Then something moves into it. I'm a big fan of creative metaphysics, as you may have guessed...
My son was so blessed to have had an ENglish teacher in sixth grade who taught philosophical principles along with English lit. He fell in love, studied it through high school and on into college. He taught me aobut Spinozan philosophy, his favorite. I'm so grateful to that wonderful teacher who bent the currivulum all for the good of the kids.
A few thoughts: I believe the Universal question is "Do I exist?" I believe this question drives all the myriad creative endevors of time, space, and experience. Every atom, molecule, and quantum event asks this primary question. Of course it all exists. The subsequent question is: "How" or in what way? The quantum dusts share the questions and answers, and life was born of this exchange.
Heh, heh... Even if the Universe didn't exist, wouldn't it exist as something that doesn't exist...
A lot of persons believe in magic - or gods - as magnificent large scale events. My model is "All" of life is stardust, observing itself in endless observance of the question ...
No worries. He's one of those writers that is sadly underread. But I implore you to seek out any book of his essays, turn to any page, start reading. That's all. Judging from what I've read of yours so far, I think you'll dig it.
Might I share a quick one?
Here's Eiseley describing seeing a spider hanging in a web in front of a street lamp during a snow storm:
"The mind, it came to me as I slowly descended the ladder, is a very remarkable thing; it has gotten itself a kind of courage by looking at a spider in a street lamp. Here was something that ought to be passed on to those who will fight our final freezing battle with the void. I thought of setting it down carefully as a message to the future: In the days of the frost, seek a minor sun."
The transcriptions in there are wild, and there are many different kinds of books. When I'm feeling like I need an escape from this weird imaginary world we've made for ourselves, I'll dive into one of her books. The first book I read was on the 3 waves of volunteers, and I had found that I identified with a lot of what she described and it made me feel less alone in my experience.
Both your own experience and the books description are so interesting! I’ve experienced two different states of the void, one during meditation which was peaceful and refreshing, the other in a similar fashion to yours being half awake, half asleep and that one was scary. I wonder if the difference is when half asleep we aren’t in control of the experience?
The Edgar Cayce readings suggested that we were all created to keep God company. God was lonely. I think I have assumed that the void was all light. I have thought that evil is the choice to stand in the darkness, a shadow, or to turn one's face away from the light. I know this veers off from your original point, but I just thought I'd put that out there.
I have not read it, but I've now added it to my cart. Evelyn also had a perfect recommendation for me that I ended up getting. I love that you tied death into the conversation, as many if not most, believe that that is what nothing is.
This is another excellent rendering of the philosophy I briefly unwrapped today. Thank you for this.
I think the issue is certainly one of definitions. As a philosophy student I thought about this specific issue quite a lot, and got to a stage where I think I have the answer. The definition of 'genuine' nothing is really just that - absolute nothing. It does not contain the possibility of 'something'. If it did, it would not strictly speaking be 'nothing'.
Point one. Point two then acknowledges that there is clearly something (it doesn't matter what the something is, but there is something) - even if it's only me, that's still something. The fact that I am typing this is 'something'. That's self-evident.
Point three is acknowledging that 'something' cannot come from 'nothing' (which is the definition issue).
Point four then suggests that, therefore 'there must always have been something' - from a certain point of view the default state should be nothing, but it isn't. Logically, then, there can't possibly be a 'beginning' - because there can't one moment be 'nothing' and then the next moment 'something' - 'something' must have always existed. Thus, whatever it is that the something originated from is not nothing, but is itself something, with the power of creation - so the something is self-generative.
My final point five was a bit weird, and I suggested that the only thing 'relative to the nothing' which can exist is 'possibility' - meaning all of this 'something' is actually not a 'real thing' itself, but a 'possibility'. Meaning possibility is the only thing that can exist.
Nowadays I'm not too sure about point five. I think if something exists then everything exists, just not necessarily at the same time or in the same place, since that would create incompatibilities. To resolve that issue of infinity, the different possibilities for the arrangements/configurations of 'the something' must be separated - thus we get stuff like parallel worlds.
A deeper additional thought to all this is the action of 'time' on the something. I've come to think of time as the fundamental force - without some generative principle there wouldn't be any something. Time, then, is this generative principle - although it's probably not 'time' as most people understand it.
Anyway - there's my philosophical two pence there. This idea of nothing vs. something is one of my favourite philosophical questions - I'm glad I'm not the only one!
You leave some on the best comment here Evelyn. Excellent explanation, I've always loved the format of derivatives that philosophy uses, and can't understand why it isn't utilized universally. I think philosophy should be a class taught in elementary grade school. I've made the same deductions. I think that perhaps "nothing" might be able to exist, whatever that is, but if so, only momentarily. The "moment" being the time force that you've explained. I think that getting to the root of this lies in defining what nothing is, hence this post. Thank you for this.
That's a really lovely thing to say - thank you!
I am absolutely with you on teaching philosophy in schools - also psychology. Of course, if the people in power allowed that they wouldn't be able to fool people anymore!
Yes, I think there can be pockets of nothingness, and temporary. Then something moves into it. I'm a big fan of creative metaphysics, as you may have guessed...
Exactly.
Also, I recently received your book recommendation in the mail and haven't had the time to look closely at it yet, but am looking forward to it!
My son was so blessed to have had an ENglish teacher in sixth grade who taught philosophical principles along with English lit. He fell in love, studied it through high school and on into college. He taught me aobut Spinozan philosophy, his favorite. I'm so grateful to that wonderful teacher who bent the currivulum all for the good of the kids.
A few thoughts: I believe the Universal question is "Do I exist?" I believe this question drives all the myriad creative endevors of time, space, and experience. Every atom, molecule, and quantum event asks this primary question. Of course it all exists. The subsequent question is: "How" or in what way? The quantum dusts share the questions and answers, and life was born of this exchange.
Heh, heh... Even if the Universe didn't exist, wouldn't it exist as something that doesn't exist...
A lot of persons believe in magic - or gods - as magnificent large scale events. My model is "All" of life is stardust, observing itself in endless observance of the question ...
I agree. Thank you for this.
Thank you for the opportunity to express these thoughts... I get a good feeling from your site. Best regards. Paul Vonharnish
Kicker ending! Love it.
You know, I thought so too! Thank you lol
Gonna go out on a limb here. Perchance are you a Loren Eiseley fan? That line reminded me of him.
I'm afraid I don't know who that is, but it sounds like I should 😬😬😬
No worries. He's one of those writers that is sadly underread. But I implore you to seek out any book of his essays, turn to any page, start reading. That's all. Judging from what I've read of yours so far, I think you'll dig it.
Might I share a quick one?
Here's Eiseley describing seeing a spider hanging in a web in front of a street lamp during a snow storm:
"The mind, it came to me as I slowly descended the ladder, is a very remarkable thing; it has gotten itself a kind of courage by looking at a spider in a street lamp. Here was something that ought to be passed on to those who will fight our final freezing battle with the void. I thought of setting it down carefully as a message to the future: In the days of the frost, seek a minor sun."
*adds an entire author's collection to the to be read pile*
Well, sounds like I'm going to have many busy afternoons now lol
Thank you for taking the time to share this with me.
Also, I’m now down a rabbit hole of Cannons books!
The transcriptions in there are wild, and there are many different kinds of books. When I'm feeling like I need an escape from this weird imaginary world we've made for ourselves, I'll dive into one of her books. The first book I read was on the 3 waves of volunteers, and I had found that I identified with a lot of what she described and it made me feel less alone in my experience.
Both your own experience and the books description are so interesting! I’ve experienced two different states of the void, one during meditation which was peaceful and refreshing, the other in a similar fashion to yours being half awake, half asleep and that one was scary. I wonder if the difference is when half asleep we aren’t in control of the experience?
Oh my goodness, I'm so glad to hear I'm not the only one. That's actually a good theory on that.
The Edgar Cayce readings suggested that we were all created to keep God company. God was lonely. I think I have assumed that the void was all light. I have thought that evil is the choice to stand in the darkness, a shadow, or to turn one's face away from the light. I know this veers off from your original point, but I just thought I'd put that out there.
Its like a voidless void < 3
What's a post you feel deserves to be seen more than it has? I'd like to read it.
It’s hard to answer that question not knowing what you’d want to read. Perhaps I’d suggest my post on symmetrical entropy. 🤔
You know, i was afraid to tell you what i wanted to tell…
So i was going to just pass on, because we do not know what other… are… fundamentaly… it’s not so… really the case. Anyway.
I found your post on the way of quitting your page, the post about “fear is permision”
By total fortuity.
And so, i decided not to give you a little after reading, but the entirety of it.
For i have now learned a new and great thing :
Every people have saw, many many many many things,
And i am not alone, nor you are in reality…
Ahahahahhaha.
So i will begin here, even if i did not have the same experience as you nor the same life, i will not fear to tell you about mine too.
Or maybe just a little, no, even just that :
It is about thought. Though was always the answer.
Be it mind, be it monster, be it light, be it emotion, be it will, or anything else in the world,
All is thougt .
The sentence is :
It is the questioning about the absence of void, that created the illusion of all things.
-
Do you understand ?
Do you maybe know the sentence :
I think so i am” by Descart, the french philosopher.
He was utterly right.
It is though, hermes, the trismegist said in his law :
We are living in the mind of god.
The nothingness, how to explain.
The reason why, is adventure of life.
Because loniless and nothingness.
So if you were, all alone and afraid, what would you do ?
You would think : and what if .
It is life.
That just there, is creation.
This is why, when you think about something, it’s get more potent,
It is why though are so important.
The muslime said in the coran :
And god give him(Adam) from his spirit.
To say, he gave him part of his spirit.
The wanabago in north america said :
That god created the world by his though.
And that we live in the mind of the (great spirit)
Or again, Lao Tseu, that have written the first texte of the Taoisme said :
I do not know who created the way, he is more ancient than god .
It is to say for me, The creator is you, it is me, him. Everything is the thought of god.
Nothing have ever changed, the truth was always everywhere, and what i am saying,
Every people before me already said it.
Alan watt, i hope i prononced it great said :
Someone who think all the time, have nothing to think about, expect though.
I think the more i say, the more complicated it gets.
So for you to understand, i will just leave you the first message i wanted to give you but i had retracted,
I do not know what you wil get but, i know now, like me, you are strong enough, i believe in you.
Truly, you gave me strength without knowing, i will give you the world that i know,
Even if maybe you already know it, and i am the ignorant.
I have written so much, ah….
Ahaha you are god, thinking of himself doing what you do, in the world where you are.
For the sole purpose of: and what if, i was not alone ? And what if ? And what if, life ?
That is creation…
———
I know that…. So no need to say a thing.
Just listen if you have ears, and read if you have eyes.
I don’t need reply…
The sentence is :
It is the questioning about the absence of void, that created the illusion of all things.
C’est le questionnement de l’absence du vide,
Qui crea l’ilusion de toute chose.
This, is merely though,
Writing… loneliness…. Indescribable void.
I can ask myself now.
Is there someone in the world.
Currently….
I love you for reading me.
Can i ask you something,
I don’t need reply.
Do you hear it ?
I mean… i know the answer…
How pathetic…
A crazy old man… to young maybe…
I always write that sort of thing, and it never lead me that far.
072704321703
But i don’t need to go anywhere, i am always here. It never changed, since the oldest beginning of time.
It is just a thought.
A thought… i mean….
It’s about thinking…
Though is the key.
Have you already heard the sentence about:
I think so i am”
When there is void, and nothingness,
There is only one thing left, to consciousness.
It is. Thinking.
I am sorry to tell you that, i will stop…
Knowing is maybe too sad sometime…
Someone who think all the time, have nothing to think about, except though”
Whatever the world, the truth lies always in thinking.
I know i said i will stop, but. No i don’t want to curse you…
Like Zeleph did.
He cried, Zeleph…
He cried so much…. So much….
He said… it’s merely a nightmare, that shall never end…
Then he smiled thinking “ what a beautiful world.”
And he said… “how unfortunate…”
“Why” did she said…
He replied : “the magic of all thing”
le concluant de zeleph.
ahahahhahahahahha.
I remember my favorite friend when he said :
I don’t know who created the great Dao.
But he is most ancien than God.
Ahahahahahahahhahahaha !
Ah…. Than i should say !
“I don’t know too.” Ahahahahahha.
For knowing is a sin.
When a child’s dream….
Is sweatier than the void of all thing.
Please if you read, don’t be cursed by this knowledge, please, do not fall…
Please, i do not want to feel any more pain
—————
Ah… i know that you, are strong enough.
And i was just a child afraid just now.
Yes, the world is an illusion of truth,
A dream about somethingness,
In a great couscioness of nothingness.
It is about a child, that we named god,
Afraid to be alone, and that was so lonely and so sad and so… desesperetely in need for adventure…
He, i… evereything… just… I just wanted not to be alone.
And knowing that chassing after adventure would just make me more lonely, i decided to chase forever,
In every dimension, in infinite absoluty, for absolute eternity and beyond space and time.
Without begining, without end.
I am but a though, i am but thinking.
That is….
We all had our nightmare, and our sweetdream…
The little girl made me cry…
Ah… i always was a kind heart…
I will even give you more than this !
If you go on “reddit” and you type on the reseache “Zephelein” you will find something.
It is for you, you can read it allllll…
Maybe one life would not be enough, sorry for the orthographic fault ahahahahahahah
I have not read it, but I've now added it to my cart. Evelyn also had a perfect recommendation for me that I ended up getting. I love that you tied death into the conversation, as many if not most, believe that that is what nothing is.
This is another excellent rendering of the philosophy I briefly unwrapped today. Thank you for this.